Maybe There Are No Bad Teachers to Fire?

By Catherine Hockmuth, Ocean Beach

Such a story is not sensationalistic enough for the modern journalistic era.

Posted by Poppa | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 7:10 am

There are no good or bad teachers according to the union contract. Teachers are paid and rewarded only based upon seniority. Teachers are retained or let go based upon having tenure not based upon performance. So we spend $41 million busing students away from the all the great teachers in the student's neighborhood schools? Do the teachers caught having sexual contact with students need to be fired? Maybe some teachers do need to be fired and all teachers need to be rewarded based upon performance. The way to improve schools is to have neighborhood control over neighborhood schools.

Posted by RB | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 9:58 am

The lack of accountability in all levels of government should be looked at as a problem. Once tenure is achieved it takes an act of God to terminate an employee, the path of least resistance is acceptance and toleration of sub standard performance. There is a big difference between the goals of the Teacher's Union and that of the education system as a whole. If the goals were the same the Teacher's Union would be the Student's Union acting in the best interest of the children. A Union spokesperson once publicly said "students don't pay dues". The rules, guidelines and performance reviews for educators are made by educators, this kind of self governing has lead to the current roadblocks for any meaningful reform effort. Whether it's the Mayor, Governor, PTA panel or Santa Clause someone needs to take charge and make the necessary changes or kids don't have achance.

Posted by PMP | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 10:22 am

My kids went through City Schools, They had some wonderful teachers. But,. In fifth grade my sons teacher would not have any parent volunteers, suspicious .. She had her husband help her. She spent most of her day smoking behind the class, her husband taught . we questioned this, we were blown off. This kid was a high achiever, they were put in the ap class in 4th . They did great. The next year they went to the above 5th grade, total disaster. . Another child was difficult. They questioned everything. They spent years in (isolation) the room behind the class. They struggeled in class, but seemed smart. They barely graduated. They have an IQ above 160, They are a published author. they had a learning disability. We paid thousands for tutors. City schools did not help them.

Posted by lee | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 4:42 pm

Teachers should be on a yearly contract. When I had issues with a teacher at the school my stepson attends, the admin told me that I was not the first parent to complain, I wouldn't be the last and the administration was stuck with her because she was tenured. The best I could hope for was she quit, retired or committed a felony. What a pleasant thought...

Posted by Kelly Donivan | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 5:44 pm

The horror story you share is natural when we consider that historically we are at a time where city bureaucracies are too large and out of control. However, the problem in general is not the occasional bad teacher whom the union protects, nor the union which exists because teachers were and are low paid. I think teachers can be paid from year to year, as you said, only if we can actually attract them to the job in the first place. Why do you think it's hard to retain teachers? There must be a reason, and it's not the union, which only shows up if the teacher has a complaint. It's the low pay and the large district, which I think is your real enemy.

Posted by Jim | reply to this comment
November 8, 2009 5:41 pm

Education reporter Emily Alpert weighing in here on the headline. I think even though there's a reasonable debate over what the statistic on teacher firing means -- and whether the low rates indicate that people are either leaving on their own or just improving with help -- the report did mention a wide range of things that can be generally agreed on as problems, such as dropout rates and test scores that reflect a large number of children not meeting academic standards. The tricky part, of course, is figuring out the causes and how to improve it. That's why I decided on this headline. Everyone can agree that things need to improve, even if we disagree on some of the specific data. The question is the "Now what?" So I'd be curious to hear from commenters -- what now?

Posted by Emily Alpert | reply to this comment
November 5, 2009 6:35 pm

Emily – Has education improved? Is it not improving? Will it continue to improve? Both fortunately and unfortunately, journalists are not historians. I expect that if your readers were to practice some history they would find that the state of U.S. education is vastly improved compared to what existed following WWII. History considers many variables if it is of worth. The U.S. population in quantity and quality is a much different place than it was more than sixty years ago. Further, unionization of the teacher corps has led to a much needed professionalization of its ranks. What has been woefully left out of discussions regarding teacher quality are institutional means of maintaining and improving teaching practices. Firing employees is the only solution unimaginative corporate elites are willing to consider.

Posted by Scott Mullin | reply to this comment
November 7, 2009 9:34 am

I agree that unionization of teachers has led to improved teacher professionalism since the bad old days (and that business model types only understand downsizing and firing people. Since when was that ever the measure of anything worthwhile?) But we are at a crossroads, Scott, and cannot afford more same-old same-old. We need to renew the national commitment to public schools, teachers and students. We need investment, stable funding and major restructuring: notions like charter schools and Teach for America are just tinkering around the edges. We need small schools with small classes and new demanding strategies to reach the kinds of kids who are out there, remembering that not everyone is middle class, white and English-speaking, but all need a good education nonetheless. We need teachers with college degrees in academic subjects, trained in model classrooms, who have passed rigorous qualifying entrance exams.

Posted by Frances O'Neill Zimmerma | reply to this comment
November 7, 2009 8:32 pm

And I agree with you that charter schools and Teach for America are tinkering around the edges. Real reform has not yet been considered. You will find that when it is, all teachers will be willing to join in on the improvements. Real change, not just tax cutting and teacher firing, is what is good for children. Small classes, changes in practice (especially allowing for collaboration and planning within the work day), and reforms in teacher education are all in order. I'm afraid the numbers crunchers who are currently driving much of the discourse of education reform are only willing to crunch numbers. When we stop seeing the business of education as business and start seeing it as a human endeavor, I expect our children will truly benefit.

Posted by Scott Mullin | reply to this comment
November 8, 2009 10:52 am

No one has said it better, Scott. Education is a human endeavor. All the rest is noise. If this country intends to maintain greatness, it will invest in the public education of its children.

Posted by Frances O'Neill Zimmerma | reply to this comment
November 9, 2009 9:39 pm

We have to be very careful about the language we use with regards to schools because it feeds the beast of politics and blame-the-teachers hysteria. It's too easy to say schools are "beset with problems," which makes me think of schools as zoos. I think the reality is, overall, actually much more positive, and as you've pointed out in much of your terrific reporting there are some very good things happening in schools everyday. The achievement gap isn't new and it's not unique to San Diego. The solution? I don't think there is just one. If I say we need to look at community conditions that contribute to the achievement gap (poverty, parents with little education of their own, absenteeism) then I'll be told I'm just making excuses for teachers and their lack of "accountability." Another buzz word that gets tossed around in service of politicians, but not students.

Posted by Catherine | reply to this comment
November 6, 2009 8:53 am

What now? Scrap the current system and start over. End all collective bargaining agreements. Compile data regarding the number of illegal immigrants receiving education in public schools and send an invoice for the cost of education to the federal government. Install a universal test to grade students at the beginning, middle and end of each school year. The performance of these students would be judged by their individual improvement. Separate students who don't speak English in to classes designed to meet their needs, bring them in to the main stream when proficient in speaking / understanding English. Require continuing education for all teachers. Have mandatory parent teacher conferences at least once a year. Have strict guidelines for tax payer subsidized benefits (free lunch programs) and actually enforce them. Get rid of all non education programs like media and school PR programs. Have school construction work done with fair/ open competition.

Posted by PMP | reply to this comment
November 6, 2009 9:10 am

Excellent suggestions, all of them. Now how do we implement them? Let's problem solve here. I don't see a whole lot of that going on in any district.

Posted by Kelly Donivan | reply to this comment
November 6, 2009 2:13 pm

Among your suggestions: don't forget to raise pay rates for teachers 25% or more. Then you'll have people you can fire at will and force to attend even more training when they're not prepping, grading, or otherwise sacrificing their lives to the job. Don't believe me? Then implement your suggestions and you'll come crying to the colleges later asking for more teachers.

Posted by jim | reply to this comment
November 8, 2009 5:52 pm

if you haven't seen many people fired in the private sector you obviously aren't working in a "performance driven company". i have seen many fired. in fact as part of my MBA (from a top tier school), i wrote a paper (which was published) on the fact that every company should fire about 5% of it's workforce every year. as no company hires 100% effectively, some people become complacent, and some people are just not good at their jobs. teachers...you argue shouldn't be fired for being bad at their jobs? if this is the so called "most important job", who can you have people teaching that are BAD at it? all government is grossly inefficient, but not being able to fire teachers is what has caused the downfall of education.

Posted by marko | reply to this comment
November 8, 2009 7:30 am

The problem with our society in the last 35 years is that MBAs from "top-tier schools" get published for having drunk the business-model kool-aid and promulgating clap-trap such as Marko's. A "performance-driven company" is one that "fires about 5% of its workforce every year?" In my opinion, it is someone with such a belief system that is evidence of the "downfall of education" -- and the cratered economy and the sociology of "Bowling Alone" and killer money-driven politics and...well, you get the idea: I think Marco's adrift.

Posted by Fed Up | reply to this comment
November 8, 2009 1:29 pm

I never said bad teachers shouldn't be fired. I am questioning the use of this particular data set -- that teacher firings are rare -- as a negative indicator without any supporting data or context. Show me the evidence that districts that fire a lot of people have better student outcomes. I've worked in organizations where measuring my performance was easy as it was determined by my own individual effort. Teaching is dependent not only on the teacher's efforts and ability, but on the effort and ability of at least 150 to 200 people (students).

Posted by Catherine | reply to this comment
November 9, 2009 6:17 am

We can jawbone all we want but the situation in San Diego and California has gotten so bad that the idea of "fixing the schools" is like a long-running Henny Youngman joke. Even more painfully funny is the idea of throwing more and more tax money at this yawning black hole. Instead, if you are a parent, for God's sake, get your kids out of public schools and into a school where they can be educated. Otherwise, your children face an increasingly competetive world where they will always be at a disadvantage...

Posted by BlkJK | reply to this comment
November 13, 2009 2:34 pm

Yes, the President has shown us the way. You demand that resource be wasted without results on busing, no child left behind, Spanish, food programs, union dues and remedial classes, while you send your children to private schools. However, it is still easy for public school students to get into the UC by being in the top 5 percent of the public high school wasteland.

Posted by RB | reply to this comment
November 14, 2009 12:35 pm

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